Author Topic: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info  (Read 73653 times)

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Offline BigMike

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Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« on: April 01, 2010, 09:32:48 PM »
My 6-speed conversion is finished and can be read about beginning at Reply #207 of this thread.



The 6-speed C6X transaxle is offered in the following two flavors:

1st2nd3rd4th5th6threvFinalApplication
C60   3.166   2.050   1.481   1.166   0.916   0.725   3.250   4.529   Matrix XRS and Vibe GT
C603.1662.0501.4811.1660.9160.8153.2504.529Celica GT-S and Lotus Elise

As you can see the Celica and Elise both use a C60 version having a 12.5% lower 6th gear compared to the Matrix and Vibe's C60.

For reference, here are some other transaxles to compare with:

1st2nd3rd4th5th6threvFinalApplication
C52   3.166   1.904   1.310   0.969   0.815   3.250   3.722   93-97 Corolla with 7A-FE
C523.1661.9041.3100.9690.8153.2504.312AW11
C563.1661.9041.3921.0310.8153.2504.312Corolla AE89 Close Range 3-4
C593.1661.9041.3100.9690.8153.2504.058Matrix 1ZZ-FE
E513.2301.9131.2580.9180.7313.5834.285AW11 Supercharged
C1603.1662.0501.4811.1660.9160.7253.2504.529AE111 20-valve

Interesting, the Pontiac Vibe & Toyota Matrix 6-spds share the same gear ratios as the 20-valve AE111 6-speed.

Also, there are different Final Drive ratios to choose from as well. Final drive ratios between C5X series are only interchangeable with C16X series transaxles. Unfortunately a C5X final drive will not mate with the C60 gear set. The C60 final drive must be used.

The best setup would be to get the 20-valve 6-speed and choose which C5X final drive to run.
Available C5X final drives are 3.526, 3.722, 3.941, 4.058, 4.312, and 4.529. The 3.7 & 4.3 are domestically available, the rest are only JDM and/or European.

Below is an attached Excel spread sheet Tire Size vs. Engine RPM Speed calculator to play with. It is quite nice. :D
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 08:59:49 AM by BigMike »
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Offline BigMike

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2010, 09:55:19 PM »
But of course acquiring a C160 is much more expensive and more difficult to get than the C60, which is available state-side. So on to the C60 then!

Here are some pictures:













Here is the C60 (the cleaner one) compared to a C56:










Look at how much larger the webbing on the C60 is:




Compared to the C56:




Top view of the C60 webbing:




Top view of the C56 webbing:




Here is how to identify a C60 from a C56 based on the 5th/6th gear housing.
Here is the C56:



And here is the C60

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Offline BigMike

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2010, 10:02:11 PM »
So what does all this mean? To get the C60 installed behind your 4A, all you have to do is swap the C60 internals into your C5X, swap 5th/6th housing, and modify the shift linkages (if using in a MR2 and wa-la! 6-speed to go!

Here is a C52 6-speed Hybrid for use in a MR2:



Here you can see the MR2 C52 bellhousing and center housing attached to a C60 5th/6th housing using C60 internal gear and final drive set:

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Offline Sirdeuce

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010, 11:44:43 AM »
4.3 final is good. If needed, we can change that outside of the tranny with lower profile tires. 225 45 16? 7" wide rims.
"I slept with faith and found a corpse in my arms on wakening; I drank and danced all night with doubt and found her a virgin in the morning."

Offline BigMike

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2010, 11:07:16 PM »
That tire would be much larger than the stock tires. FYI 205x16x40 & 205x15x50 are close in size to the 185x14x60.

Tire SizeCircumference    % Change    MPH, 6th gear, 3.5k RPM
185x60x14    71.44"72.1
205x50x1572.48"+1.38%73.2
205x40x1670.55"-1.26%71.2
225x45x1675.31"+5.13%76.0
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Offline Sirdeuce

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010, 12:05:16 AM »
Sorry, I goofed, that was spposed to be a 15" rim.
"I slept with faith and found a corpse in my arms on wakening; I drank and danced all night with doubt and found her a virgin in the morning."

Offline Sirdeuce

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 09:45:28 AM »
Mike, try this. what size tire/wheel combo to work with an E series trans? We have access to an AE101 E-58. LSD, I believe it has an internal oil pump. 50 series tires on 14" rims? I think this would match the stock powerband better than the 6 speed gearing anyway.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 10:05:48 AM by Sirdeuce »
"I slept with faith and found a corpse in my arms on wakening; I drank and danced all night with doubt and found her a virgin in the morning."

Offline Sirdeuce

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 09:56:15 AM »
Verified, internal oil pump. Means we can use oil cooler on trans. Good for longevity.
"I slept with faith and found a corpse in my arms on wakening; I drank and danced all night with doubt and found her a virgin in the morning."

Offline Sirdeuce

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2010, 10:19:45 AM »
1st   3.214
2nd  2.045
3rd   1.333
4th   0.972
5th   0.820

Final 3.944
"I slept with faith and found a corpse in my arms on wakening; I drank and danced all night with doubt and found her a virgin in the morning."

Offline BigMike

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2010, 02:27:06 PM »
1st   3.214
2nd  2.045
3rd   1.333
4th   0.972
5th   0.820

Final 3.944

Where did you get these numbers from? These are worse gear ratios than the stock AW11 Supercharged transaxle (E51). That final drive is way tall

Edit: I'm working on some calculations right now, please stand by...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 02:32:38 PM by BigMike »
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Offline BigMike

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2010, 03:26:02 PM »
I'm working on some calculations right now, please stand by...

Ok, here is a time vs acceleration study.

Test data is as follows:
Car weight: 1950 lbs
Weight balance 45% front, 55% rear       
Tires: 195x14x60
Horsepower: 125 @ 6600
Torque: 105 @ 4800

I ran this same car using the stock C52, the AE89 C56, the S/C AW11 E51, Bill's E58 ratios posted above, and the C60 6-speed ratios from the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe version.

Here are the results:



The above graph shows a standing start 0-100 MPH acceleration. This shows that the gearing really doesn't make much of a difference from a standing start. All 5 transaxles have virtually no difference in this test.

Standing Start 1/4-mile results:
TransxaleTime (s)Speed (MPH)
C5215.290.3
C5615.290.2
E5115.292.4
E5815.392.2
C6015.391.8

I performed two more tests that are far more pertinent to track racing: 30 to 50 MPH and 50 to 70 MPH acceleration.



The above graph shows how much time it takes to accelerate from 30 MPH to 50 MPH in each gear (lower is better). The numbers indicate the number of seconds each transaxle took to reach 50 MPH. You can see that no matter what gear the test was performed in, the 6-speed C60 transaxle was far superior. The C60 pulls harder in 5th gear than almost all of the others do in 4th! You can see how well the AE89's C56 transaxle fairs in this test. It really is the best 5-speed for the 4A-GE; Toyota should have used this ratio in the AW11.





Lastly, as shown in the above chart, the 6-speed transaxle out accelerates every other transaxle in each gear at higher speeds as well.

The 6-speed transaxle is clearly the best option for track racing. We will accelerate far quicker out of every corner of the track and will put up much better lap times.

BigMike
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 03:34:46 PM by BigMike »
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Offline BigMike

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2010, 03:46:49 PM »
Verified, internal oil pump. Means we can use oil cooler on trans. Good for longevity.

At least it will be winter time so it won't be as hot as it could be. Also, with the car much lighter than stock, the gears won't be under as much pressure.

Mike
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Offline Sirdeuce

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2010, 09:11:56 PM »
Just trying to find a decent combination for the first race. Biggest thing I was pushing on this trans is the LSD and oil cooler. The ratios I found online. Check out this little thing on shuffling gears in the trans.   www.bmsc.com.au/forums/rallying-technical/9603-fwd-toyota-gearbox-ratios-2.html     
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Offline Sirdeuce

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2010, 09:13:24 PM »
Also, do a workup on the E-58 with 205 50 14 tires. And my only other argument on this is we already have one. First race we'll hold back, pull out the stops in fall '11.
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Offline BigMike

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Re: Toyota C-series 6-speed Swap Info
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2010, 01:38:56 AM »
Just trying to find a decent combination for the first race. Biggest thing I was pushing on this trans is the LSD and oil cooler. The ratios I found online. Check out this little thing on shuffling gears in the trans.   www.bmsc.com.au/forums/rallying-technical/9603-fwd-toyota-gearbox-ratios-2.html     

I understand we already have the transaxle... Remember it is heavier and requires a larger and heavier flywheel + clutch. The cooler is nice but with such a light car I don't think it will be an issue. We can run some MaxiLube + Redline MT90 which I think will do just fine. What do you think about the LSD? I can see how tires might last longer, but it also might create more oversteer which the MR2 has enough of already. The LSD in a Levin (FWD) makes sense but I'm not so sure about it in a MR2 unless we are really great drivers and great track conditions.

Those guys on the BMSC forum are crazy. That was a lot of work to get those gear ratios!! :o

Also, do a workup on the E-58 with 205 50 14 tires.

Here it is compared to the C60 and with 195x14x60. I really REALLY like the 205x14x50: I am a VERY strong proponent for 50-series profile.

195x14x60 has a diameter of 23.31 inches and a circumference of 72.92 inches.
205x14x50 has a diameter of 22.07 inches and a circumference of 69.34 inches (5% smaller)



You can see the smaller tires really help quite a lot with the E-series transmission, but the fact that the 6-speed has such closer ratios totally kills the 5-speed. In fact, the smaller tires make the 6-speed even better, especially in 5th gear (which we won't be using much of haha :D)



2nd gear is the only comparable gear ratio between the 5-spd and 6-spd, but the 6-spd is still better. And since we'll be in 3rd and maybe 4th, it's ownage for the 6-spd. The faster the car goes the more advantageous the 6-spd becomes.

Comparatively speaking, 4th and 5th gear of the E58 are completely worthless and should never be used. So if we keep it in 1st - 3rd it would be ok, but still, the 6spd is a whole second quicker in 3rd than the 5-spd which is huge.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 01:44:11 AM by BigMike »
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