My 6-speed conversion is finished and can be read about beginning at Reply #207 of this thread (http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/forum/index.php?topic=87.msg2623#msg2623).
The 6-speed C6X transaxle is offered in the following two flavors:
| 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | rev | Final | Application |
C60 | 3.166 | 2.050 | 1.481 | 1.166 | 0.916 | 0.725 | 3.250 | 4.529 | Matrix XRS and Vibe GT |
C60 | 3.166 | 2.050 | 1.481 | 1.166 | 0.916 | 0.815 | 3.250 | 4.529 | Celica GT-S and Lotus Elise |
As you can see the Celica and Elise both use a C60 version having a 12.5% lower 6th gear compared to the Matrix and Vibe's C60.
For reference, here are some other transaxles to compare with:
| 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | rev | Final | Application |
C52 | 3.166 | 1.904 | 1.310 | 0.969 | 0.815 | | 3.250 | 3.722 | 93-97 Corolla with 7A-FE |
C52 | 3.166 | 1.904 | 1.310 | 0.969 | 0.815 | | 3.250 | 4.312 | AW11 |
C56 | 3.166 | 1.904 | 1.392 | 1.031 | 0.815 | | 3.250 | 4.312 | Corolla AE89 Close Range 3-4 |
C59 | 3.166 | 1.904 | 1.310 | 0.969 | 0.815 | | 3.250 | 4.058 | Matrix 1ZZ-FE |
E51 | 3.230 | 1.913 | 1.258 | 0.918 | 0.731 | | 3.583 | 4.285 | AW11 Supercharged |
C160 | 3.166 | 2.050 | 1.481 | 1.166 | 0.916 | 0.725 | 3.250 | 4.529 | AE111 20-valve |
Interesting, the Pontiac Vibe & Toyota Matrix 6-spds share the same gear ratios as the 20-valve AE111 6-speed.
Also, there are different Final Drive ratios to choose from as well. Final drive ratios between C5X series are only interchangeable with C16X series transaxles. Unfortunately a C5X final drive will not mate with the C60 gear set. The C60 final drive must be used.
The best setup would be to get the 20-valve 6-speed and choose which C5X final drive to run.
Available C5X final drives are 3.526, 3.722, 3.941, 4.058, 4.312, and 4.529. The 3.7 & 4.3 are domestically available, the rest are only JDM and/or European.
Below is an attached Excel spread sheet Tire Size vs. Engine RPM Speed calculator to play with. It is quite nice. :D
But of course acquiring a C160 is much more expensive and more difficult to get than the C60, which is available state-side. So on to the C60 then!
Here are some pictures:
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_01.jpg)
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_02.jpg)
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_03.jpg)
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_04.jpg)
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_05.jpg)
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_06.jpg)
Here is the C60 (the cleaner one) compared to a C56:
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_01.jpg)
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_02.jpg)
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_03.jpg)
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_04.jpg)
Look at how much larger the webbing on the C60 is:
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_05.jpg)
Compared to the C56:
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_06.jpg)
Top view of the C60 webbing:
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_07.jpg)
Top view of the C56 webbing:
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_08.jpg)
Here is how to identify a C60 from a C56 based on the 5th/6th gear housing.
Here is the C56:
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_09.jpg)
And here is the C60
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C60_vs_C56_10.jpg)
So what does all this mean? To get the C60 installed behind your 4A, all you have to do is swap the C60 internals into your C5X, swap 5th/6th housing, and modify the shift linkages (if using in a MR2 and wa-la! 6-speed to go!
Here is a C52 6-speed Hybrid for use in a MR2:
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C52Hybrid_01.jpg)
Here you can see the MR2 C52 bellhousing and center housing attached to a C60 5th/6th housing using C60 internal gear and final drive set:
(http://bigmike.marlincrawler.com/images/drivetrain/trans_C52Hybrid_02.jpg)
4.3 final is good. If needed, we can change that outside of the tranny with lower profile tires. 225 45 16? 7" wide rims.
That tire would be much larger than the stock tires. FYI 205x16x40 & 205x15x50 are close in size to the 185x14x60.
Tire Size | Circumference | % Change | MPH, 6th gear, 3.5k RPM |
185x60x14 | 71.44" | | 72.1 |
205x50x15 | 72.48" | +1.38% | 73.2 |
205x40x16 | 70.55" | -1.26% | 71.2 |
| | | | |
225x45x16 | 75.31" | +5.13% | 76.0 |
Sorry, I goofed, that was spposed to be a 15" rim.
Mike, try this. what size tire/wheel combo to work with an E series trans? We have access to an AE101 E-58. LSD, I believe it has an internal oil pump. 50 series tires on 14" rims? I think this would match the stock powerband better than the 6 speed gearing anyway.
Verified, internal oil pump. Means we can use oil cooler on trans. Good for longevity.
1st 3.214
2nd 2.045
3rd 1.333
4th 0.972
5th 0.820
Final 3.944
Quote from: Sirdeuce on April 24, 2010, 10:19:45 AM
1st 3.214
2nd 2.045
3rd 1.333
4th 0.972
5th 0.820
Final 3.944
Where did you get these numbers from? These are worse gear ratios than the stock AW11 Supercharged transaxle (E51). That final drive is way tall
Edit: I'm working on some calculations right now, please stand by...
Quote from: BigMike on April 24, 2010, 02:27:06 PM
I'm working on some calculations right now, please stand by...
Ok, here is a time vs acceleration study.
Test data is as follows:
Car weight: 1950 lbs Weight balance 45% front, 55% rear Tires: 195x14x60 | Horsepower: 125 @ 6600 Torque: 105 @ 4800 |
I ran this same car using the stock C52, the AE89 C56, the S/C AW11 E51, Bill's E58 ratios posted above, and the C60 6-speed ratios from the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe version.
Here are the results:
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/rakudasama/lemons/TransaxleStudy0-100.gif)
The above graph shows a standing start 0-100 MPH acceleration. This shows that the gearing really doesn't make much of a difference from a standing start. All 5 transaxles have virtually no difference in this test.
Standing Start 1/4-mile results:
Transxale | Time (s) | Speed (MPH) |
C52 | 15.2 | 90.3 |
C56 | 15.2 | 90.2 |
E51 | 15.2 | 92.4 |
E58 | 15.3 | 92.2 |
C60 | 15.3 | 91.8 |
I performed two more tests that are far more pertinent to track racing: 30 to 50 MPH and 50 to 70 MPH acceleration.
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/rakudasama/lemons/TransaxleStudy30-50.gif)
The above graph shows how much time it takes to accelerate from 30 MPH to 50 MPH in each gear (lower is better). The numbers indicate the number of seconds each transaxle took to reach 50 MPH. You can see that no matter what gear the test was performed in, the 6-speed C60 transaxle was far superior. The C60 pulls harder in 5th gear than almost all of the others do in 4th! You can see how well the AE89's C56 transaxle fairs in this test. It really is the best 5-speed for the 4A-GE; Toyota should have used this ratio in the AW11.
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/rakudasama/lemons/TransaxleStudy50-70.gif)
Lastly, as shown in the above chart, the 6-speed transaxle out accelerates every other transaxle in each gear at higher speeds as well.
The 6-speed transaxle is clearly the best option for track racing. We will accelerate far quicker out of every corner of the track and will put up much better lap times.
BigMike
Quote from: Sirdeuce on April 24, 2010, 09:56:15 AM
Verified, internal oil pump. Means we can use oil cooler on trans. Good for longevity.
At least it will be winter time so it won't be as hot as it could be. Also, with the car much lighter than stock, the gears won't be under as much pressure.
Mike
Just trying to find a decent combination for the first race. Biggest thing I was pushing on this trans is the LSD and oil cooler. The ratios I found online. Check out this little thing on shuffling gears in the trans. www.bmsc.com.au/forums/rallying-technical/9603-fwd-toyota-gearbox-ratios-2.html
Also, do a workup on the E-58 with 205 50 14 tires. And my only other argument on this is we already have one. First race we'll hold back, pull out the stops in fall '11.
Quote from: Sirdeuce on April 24, 2010, 09:11:56 PM
Just trying to find a decent combination for the first race. Biggest thing I was pushing on this trans is the LSD and oil cooler. The ratios I found online. Check out this little thing on shuffling gears in the trans. www.bmsc.com.au/forums/rallying-technical/9603-fwd-toyota-gearbox-ratios-2.html
I understand we already have the transaxle... Remember it is heavier and requires a larger and heavier flywheel + clutch. The cooler is nice but with such a light car I don't think it will be an issue. We can run some MaxiLube + Redline MT90 which I think will do just fine. What do you think about the LSD? I can see how tires might last longer, but it also might create more oversteer which the MR2 has enough of already. The LSD in a Levin (FWD) makes sense but I'm not so sure about it in a MR2 unless we are really great drivers and great track conditions.
Those guys on the BMSC forum are crazy. That was a lot of work to get those gear ratios!! :o
Quote from: Sirdeuce on April 24, 2010, 09:13:24 PM
Also, do a workup on the E-58 with 205 50 14 tires.
Here it is compared to the C60 and with 195x14x60. I really REALLY like the 205x14x50: I am a VERY strong proponent for 50-series profile.
195x14x60 has a diameter of 23.31 inches and a circumference of 72.92 inches.
205x14x50 has a diameter of 22.07 inches and a circumference of 69.34 inches (5% smaller)
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/rakudasama/lemons/TransaxleStudy30-50tires.gif)
You can see the smaller tires really help quite a lot with the E-series transmission, but the fact that the 6-speed has such closer ratios totally kills the 5-speed. In fact, the smaller tires make the 6-speed
even better, especially in 5th gear (which we won't be using much of haha :D)
(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww46/rakudasama/lemons/TransaxleStudy50-70tires.gif)
2nd gear is the only comparable gear ratio between the 5-spd and 6-spd, but the 6-spd is still better. And since we'll be in 3rd and maybe 4th, it's ownage for the 6-spd. The faster the car goes the more advantageous the 6-spd becomes.
Comparatively speaking, 4th and 5th gear of the E58 are completely worthless and should never be used. So if we keep it in 1st - 3rd it would be ok, but still, the 6spd is
a whole second quicker in 3rd than the 5-spd which is huge.
Just a thought.
If we are holding back on the first race, why not hold bac on the tranny too? It'll give us more time to get the powerband and gears working together. If we put closer eatios than the engine is tuned for the upshift will be too far above the torque band. Not that the AG has a HUGE amount of torque.
Quote from: Sirdeuce on April 26, 2010, 07:48:54 PM
If we are holding back on the first race, why not hold bac on the tranny too?
This is a good idea but I figured that since I am doing it to my car this summer FOR SURE, I want to build both my and the Lemons car 6-speed at the same time. Bill, I want to trade my modified C52/C56 transaxle to you for an unmodified C52. Are you interested? If so then I don't have to buy any 5-speed trans (I'll have one from you and the Lemons car already has one). Then I'll buy two broken C60 transaxles and gut 'em.
It shouldn't be a problem and I think it will REALLY help us out in the race.
Mike
Okie dokie, but you need to get 3 C60 trannys. I'll of course pay for one. When though? I know, I know, after June. You don't have to start with an MR2 trans you know. I have the tools to mod a FWD trans to fit.
How about a C-54? 3.545 1st, 1.904 2nd, 1.392 3rd, 1.031 4th, .864 5th. The list I'm looking at doesn't list the final, but chances are it'll be a 4.312. Comes from a Toyota Yaris.
I see you only have 1 E series trans listed. What about the E-56 from the S/C AE101?
Quote from: Sirdeuce on November 02, 2010, 11:11:10 PM
I see you only have 1 E series trans listed. What about the E-56 from the S/C AE101?
That took a while, but I found the ratios:
Gear | E51 | E56 |
1st | 3.230 | 3.538 |
2nd | 1.913 | 2.045 |
3rd | 1.258 | 1.333 |
4th | 0.918 | 1.028 |
5th | 0.731 | 0.820 |
rev | 3.583 | 3.583 |
Final | 4.285 | 3.944 |
Wow I didn't know they were that different! :o
Wonder if we can swap the final from the 51 into the 56???? How about an E-58? And where are you getting you info? I looked all over and seems noone has it.
Using the program you put on the 'puter. Running 1.8 liter 7AGE with 140 horse and 135 torque. The best trans for the car turned out to be the E-56. That was comparing C-56, E-51 and E-56.
The torque the 7AGE produces will be the deciding factor on the trtans selection. You still got those GZ axles?
Quote from: Sirdeuce on November 06, 2010, 08:07:50 PM
You still got those GZ axles?
Only if you're lucky! Which, actually reminded me about something... You will need SC spindles in order to run the larger SC axles. Therefore, we need to save the rear spindles from the White donor car & run them in the back of the Poupẻ. Then you can run the Poupẻ's SC spindles on your MR2
edit: corrected "run the Poupẻ's SC axles" which should be "run the Poupẻ's SC spindles"
I'll keep that in mind.
:dunno:Alright mike, the S/C axles are 31.4mm diameter 24 spline count. Waayyy too big for the 6 speed!
Hey guys, can anyone tell me if the MR2 C52 bellhousing will fit the the 2000 Celica C56 gearbox?